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Top 5 Most Overrated CCW Pistols

– Hey guys, James again for TFBTV. Today on TFBTV, I’ve got
something really important I wanna discuss with you. And that is the top five most overrated concealed carry guns. So, let’s jump right into it. Number five: Glock 19. I know you guys wanna put
me in that glock fanboy box. Yes, it is true that
I called the Glock 43, the best concealed
carry handgun out there. Yes, it’s also true that the Glock 19 was in my top five concealed carry guns. However, it’s also one of the most overrated concealed carry guns. Now, Glock refers to
the 19 as a compact gun, and I think they’re catfishing
you guys a little bit. The Glock 19 is not really
that compact of a gun. I would call the Glock 26 a compact gun, but not the Glock 19. And that’s really why
I believe the Glock 19 is one of the most overrated
concealed carry guns on the market. It’s a big, full size double stack. So, the thing is, is it a
bad concealed carry choice? No. It’s in my top five. I think it makes a great
jack of all trades gun. If you can only own one gun,
it might be the Glock 19. However, it’s not a compact gun. Periodically, it gets old
carrying a gun that weighs a pound and a half, plus
15 rounds, plus one, and you might find yourself
falling into the trap where you say, I’m just
gonna go around the block, do I really wanna strap
two pounds to my waist? And that’s why I think the Glock 19 is one of the most overrated
concealed carry guns out there. Now, before I get to my number four pick, I want to give a shout-out
to my AARP viewers, I love you guys, I hope
you guys subscribed, or you watched a video to
show you how to subscribe to videos on Youtube. But if you think that Wu-Tang
Clan is a Chinese restaurant, you’re not gonna like my number four pick, and you’re not gonna
like my number one pick. But we’ll start with
number four, revolvers. Yes, revolvers were on
my top five CCW video. In fact, I believe I was
referring in that video to the Smith & Wesson Airweight series. 14 ounces, five shots at the .38 special, and utterly reliable and
truly a pocketable gun. I really do like revolvers, but I also think they’re
extremely overrated. Nothing pisses me off more than when you overhear at a gun store, someone asking someone, oh hey how’s this Glock
26 for concealed carry? And then you get some
guy from the Elks Lodge down the street who says, No, no you don’t want one of those, they’re gonna jam up on you. What you need is a good revolver. My main issue with the revolvers, if I could describe it one word, inefficiency. How are they inefficient? Well, we all know inefficient
in terms of capacity, a J-Frame revolver’s only gonna hold five rounds of .38 special. They’re inefficient because
once you shoot those five rounds how long is it gonna take you to put another five rounds in there? And perhaps the most harmful thing, that .38 special round coming
out of that J-Frame revolver, that little one and
seven-eights inch barrel is probably going to hit
softer than nine millimeter. It’s gonna kick a lot
more, too, and why is that? Well, because revolvers suffer from something called bleed-off. That’s when the gases bleed
off from the cylinder gap, behind the chamber. Gases that bleed off, that
aren’t propelling the bullet down the barrel, plus you’ve
got a short barrel to boot. So, that said, they’re
really not efficient. And I really wanna re-emphasize, I think revolvers are great
concealed carry choices, but you guys that are
going out there and saying that they’re the end-all be-all,
that’s just not the case. So, imagine if you will,
the Wright Brothers. The Wright Brothers they get together, they design this awesome thing, they’re gonna call it the airplane. It’s gonna actually fly, it’s gonna take people up in the air. They spend all this time designing it, all this time conceptualizing it, and when it comes down
to making the airplane, instead of making it
out of canvas and metal, and other airplane things, they make it out of poop. Number three most overrated
concealed carry guns, Kel-Tec’s. Now, first I wanna say I
own a Kel-Tec Sub-2000, I own a Kel-Tec P-11, and I own four Kel-Tec P-3AT’s. Well, between me and my
wife, we have two each. No one’s gonna question that
Kel-Tec is one of the most innovated companies out there. The RDB, the KSG, the Sub-2000, the Kel-Tec P-3AT that Ruger
straight up ripped off. Nobody questions that Kel-Tec
can design a good gun, but for some reason it seems like they take these awesome designs, then they make them out
of recycled beach plastic, and pencil shavings. Take the P-3AT for example. It’s a great concealed
carry gun, I love it. I’ve got a bunch of them. You can put it in your
pocket, they’re cheap, they’re like a hundred and ninety dollars. And they’re still reliable,
at least mine have been. But they’ve got a trigger by Cap’n Crunch, they’ve got some of the
worst sites I’ve ever seen, the finish is awful, it’ll rust if you look
at it with a teary eye. There’s no last round slide
catch, and by the way, whoever came up with wallet
brown as a frame color should be incarcerated. And I haven’t even mentioned the PF-9 yet, it’s just straight up gross. It looks like it’s something from a fan-fiction remake of Tron. Anyways, I still love Kel-Tec,
I still love their guns. I just really wish they would
put a little more effort into completing the
fantastic designs they have. And that’s why I think
they’re the number three most overrated concealed carry guns. Number two most overrated
concealed carry guns, German handguns, in
particular Walther and HK. In true German fashion, I’m
going to present the numbers as to why I think these
guns are overrated. Now, before I look at these
numbers with you guys, I also want to mention
that they’re typically German guns, some of the most expensive concealed carry
options on the market. So they better be good, right? Well, they’re not really
that efficient it turns out. The PPS is half an inch
taller than the Glock 43, but it’s got the exact same capacity. It also weighs 22 ounces, which is the exact same
weight as the Glock 26, which is a 10 round double stack sub-compact nine millimeter. 22 ounces is also a full
eight ounces heavier than the 14 ounce Kahr PM9, which also is a six plus
one nine millimeter. I also want to throw
in there that the PPS, the gen one had a piece, the backstrap, that, if you dropped the gun
and the backstrap popped off, it would totally deactivate the gun. The Walther CCP is one
of the worst of them, and the M&P9C is smaller
than the Walther CCP, yet it holds twelve plus one versus the CCP’s eight plus one. Now, I wanna say that the
Walther PPS is a great gun, especially the Gen 2, and I loved it, gave it a favorable review. But for some reason the PPS is way bigger than it needs to be. Alright, now let’s look at HK. HK, again, you’ve got
expensive, overpriced, inefficient guns. Look at the H&K P7, for example. It’s a gun that holds eight plus one, costs $1200, but then
it weighs thirty ounces. That’s more than two Kahr PM9’s, but let’s compare apples to apples. Let’s look at HK’s newest double stack sub-compact nine millimeters, the P30SK and the P200SK. Which both functionally
have the same dimensions, and weight as the other. Well, both of them are 1.4 inches thick, whereas most double stack nine millimeters are 1.2 inches thick. Moreover, they’re both taller,
thicker, and weigh more than the Glock 26, yet they cost at least
a hundred dollars more. So, in my opinion, German
handguns are some of the most overrated concealed carry
guns out there today. Now, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, my number one pick is not
going to be a very popular one. But, I’m telling you, it’s
the God’s honest truth, that the 1911 is hands-down, the most overrated concealed
carry gun of all time. Why is that? Well, let me count the ways. Let’s start at number one, weight. First of all, if you have a
full size, all steel 1911, it’s gonna weight forty ounces. So, for forty ounces, you
could carry a Glock 26, and a Smith & Wesson Airweight, loaded, and still come out ahead. Whereas, you’re limited to
seven or eight plus one rounds of .45 with a full size, steel 1911. Well, let’s try to give a fair comparison. With the 1911, you’re shooting .45, and a lot of people won’t
carry a gun that doesn’t have a caliber with a four in front of it. So, the .45 Kimber Ultra CDP
weighs twenty-five ounces. Well, that’s larger and
heavier than the Glock 30S, but the 30S is ten plus
one, not to mention, I think the Ultra CDP
retail is almost $1400 You can almost buy three
Glock 30’s for that price, and the Glock 30’s are probably
going to be more reliable. And yes, double stack 1911’s do exist, but they’re kinda like me in high school, fat, weird, and unpopular. The thing is, the 1911
it’s an antiquated design. It’s well over 100 years old. And I know all you guys are
gonna get on here and say, oh yeah, that’s because
there’s nothing wrong with it. Well that’s not necessarily true. As the overwhelming weight of the evidence seems to indicate that you have to spend, probably, twice as much
as you would on like, a Glock or a Smith & Wesson M&P. To get a gun, to get a 1911, that’s going to be reliable. Now, guys, I know I’m (bleep) on 1911’s, but I really love 1911’s, I think they’re great guns, I’ve reviewed a bunch for this channel. Triggers excellent, magazine
release works perfectly. Again, the weight’s excellent, the recoil mitigation, very good. I can sit here and go on and on and on about how awesome this gun is. (gun firing) – You know it’s very refreshing to me, I stand here all day long and
watch everybody come and shoot I’m here so that the
guns can hit the targets. It’s very refreshing
to have one of you guys be able to hit ’em. – And yeah, they’re good
guns in their own right. But let’s be honest with ourselves, guys. I mean, really, what does it
offer in terms of reliability, over something like a Glock,
a Sig, a Smith & Wesson? Even though it costs two
to three times as much, I mean look at the Ultra CDP, I love that it says in their description, We save you $600, wow, thank you so much. So this gun that weighs
more than a Glock 30, but holds 30% fewer rounds costs $600 less than whatever, I don’t get it. Now certainly there are
advantages to carrying 1911’s. You can get lighter weight 1911’s, they’re slim, they shoot well, they’ve got some of the
best triggers out there, there’s no question that
they’re proven design, although what they’ve
proven is not exactly clear. But, guys, face it. Most overrated carry gun, period. Guys, as usual, thanks for watching. I really appreciate it. Leave a comment, you didn’t like the
list, you liked the list, you have your own list,
leave your own list, your own top five most overrated
concealed carry guns list in the comments. I’d really appreciate it. I’d also appreciate it if you subscribe. Thank you to our sponsors, proxibid, and Ventura Munitions. And I will see you guys next week. (“Stars and Stripes Forever”)

100 thoughts on “Top 5 Most Overrated CCW Pistols

  1. 1911 are not and have not been designed for ccw the are for owb and designed for military combat if you are gonna try and say a compation one that holds 18 or 20 rounds it says it in the name compation why would you try 2 cc one of those do you have a tiny penis complex. I have a LH9C when I'm out and about and a bersa thunder 380cc when I'm at work cause we aren't supposed to carry and unless someone grabbed my hips no one would ever know I have it on my hip. 99.5% of gun fights are less than 30 seconds and less than 5 rounds. Lastly the best cc is what you can conceal best with your body type that's comfortable enough to always carry that you can shoot and reload best with

  2. The 1911 isnt a concealed carry gun.
    Its a normal pistol. There aint no one that is gona conceal that!
    So i dont understand why its on this list at all.
    But hey, its your list i aint hating..

  3. I'm going to piss off all the fan boys right here. The 1911, glock, and walther are just wannabe hi-points…

  4. I have to say…You have to listen closely for your disclaimers and therefore I have to then agree with you for the most part. I love my PPS M2. It shoots better than most other guns I have shot, by far, but it is a little heavy. I do know this helps shoot-ability but like you said…you have to “weigh” that in. Yes, change the shirt too

  5. I fully agree with the list. Although I am an avid 1911 guy. My carry gun(s) are the Glocks G43, G42 G48. I am down to one .45 1911 Kimber Pro carry which is extremely accurate. It is my range gun. I let my Kimber CDP full size slip away by a friend who hounded me until I let go to him. Best 1911 I ever owned. I like your videos. I've tried the sigs and HK's and was not impressed. I have taken tactical courses using my G30. A friend of mine asks me to try his STI 2011 in .40 S&W in the FBI portion of the course. I was extremely pleased. I scored very high. But…too heavy for conceal carry…but…lust lust! Good video. 🙂

  6. A 1911 can cost the same or less than a glock after you do the required upgrades. You dont need to spend above 1k for a 1911. Kimbers are overrated. As are les baers. Yes they are pretty. But i can take a $700 1911 make it as reliable or more so than an out of the box $3000 gun. And making a 1911 run is simple. But i had to build several before i figured that out. But i understand 1911s are not for everybody. Lots of people have one that won't run. And they dont have the desire to figure out why.

  7. Cool video. I now carry an Ultra CDP 2. I carried a Smith Airweight forever. I now like having 3 more rounds and 45. I get where you are coming from though.

  8. Haters be like "Glock sucks, they're overrated." But then they go buy a polymer framed, strikerfire, doublestacked, nitrate treated, browning-short-action semi-auto with no external safety by Sig or S&W or Walther. I'm like mofo, do you know who invented that ensemble!? It took 30 years for Sig and S&W to catch up. The 1911 had been around for 80 years and police departments were still choosing revolvers over it. Glock revolutionized the handgun. Thirty years later they are still considered one of the best if not the best. You're a blind hater if you don't show respect.

  9. Some inaccuracies on your criticism of the Walther PPS. You can get either the gen 1 or gen 2 for $300 or less. Not expensive and comes with a better trigger, reliability, and accuracy than similar priced American guns. It certainly works better for me than a base M&P shield or kahr.
    Also, the back strap feature of the gen1 is a nonissue unless you want to hammer nails with the grip. Between my gen1 PPS and similar but slightly pricier Springfield XDS, I've stopped carrying the Springfield in favor of the PPS. Just more comfortable and has had no failures.
    The weight of around 20 oz is also a benefit, rather than detraction. Some of those lighter 14 oz guns are really no fun to shoot and that doesn't encourage practice.

  10. I agree. I concealed carried the G19 and it was wayyy too big, heavy, and just awkward. I carry the G43 everywhere. Love it!

  11. The best gun is the one you have on you. Also gun companies just want your money so I don’t really care what anyone else carries. 😂😂 I carry a vp9sk yes it’s super expensive but I love it. Very reliable not too heavy and very fun to look at. I carry it every day even in the gym. So it’s whatever gun you have on you.

  12. Weight doesnt matter to me, unless you try to walk around with a .50 ae deagle like I did one time, felt like it was gonna drop my pants.

  13. Fuck HK. I like them . But they dont make pistols for civilians. Like SPK. Or their rifle type pistols. They are so much. They corner the market. And dont bring down the price for poor people to be armed same as the rich.

  14. And my 1911. Doesn't kick for me. It is heavy I can hit my target everytime. Sometimes the slide gets hanged up clambering. Is only thing. But that gun is nice. And it's a hammer.

  15. So now I guess we need a " top 5 most efficient carry gun" episode?
    My LCRx isn't efficient, but………. it is comfortable to carry. So I do.

  16. Literally nobody thinks the 1911 is a good concealed carry gun you admitted to either liking the guns previously mentioned or owning several of them. So idk if this is trolling or just a video based on poor purchases

  17. @2:43 You are inefficient if you need 5 rounds to kill an attacker. 🙂
    @3:11 Does this really make such a big difference or is the inefficiency just overrated? I mean in the real world.

  18. The 24/7 tuarus 9mm g2c compact .my right hand man best gun of all time easy to conceal ,thousands of rds great quality.

  19. Hard to carry, EZ to shoot. Glock 19. If your not willing to carry heavy stuff, are you willing to practice every week with the amount of ammo you carry daily? IMO no. So ez to carry hard to shoot weapon by lazy people. sounds good to me.

  20. When you said any German gun you lost me… the pps m2 is one of the best ccp on the market. Not over rated as it is what it says it is.. and at 319$ not as expensive as a glock and more accurate.

  21. Wu-Tang Clan has an age limit? You're cool because you've heard of a band that formed before you were born, an impossibility for older people? You relate to their music? I'll give you this – you're a lot funnier than you can imagine.

  22. It is about time someone told the truth about the 1911. I cut my handgun teeth on the 1911 as a Marine from 1977-1999. It is my all-time favorite pistol. However as an carry weapon it makes zero sense today. Not that it isn't reliable or accurate but there are at least 25 weapons that are superior in that role. 1911 Worshippers, note the words " in that role".

    Every 1911 I was issued in the Corps had a off center hold to hit the center. I noticed as my firearm knowledge improved that most had cripped or damaged crowns or the barrel. It took this Marine 10 years to learn this. Never said I was a genius. Later in my career I had the fortune to shoot National Match grade 1911's ( totally different weapon than our issue 1911's.

    I sold my last 1911 for my first and only Glock ( 30 FS .45) in 2012 and have been using the 30 as my EDC ever since. No regrets at all.

    Glad you had the courage to say what is a known truth. The 1911 is outdated as an Carry Pistol.

    German pistols are some of the best pistols for any reason to include Carry. Disagree on that rating.

    Semper Fi

  23. You have some good points on every gun you mentioned. I must respectfully disagree with your choice for #1.
    My issue with your #1 rating for the 1911 is that you did not discuss the size variations and concealability (full size, commander and Officer). I have a Commander sized 1911 that conceals wonderfully in the summer, therefore year around, and is a tack driver with a 4.5# stock trigger. It is heavier than a Glock, but with the slide safety (never a problem when a person holds the gun as designed), and the grip safety, I have no problem carrying cocked and locked – even with a series 70 1911. It is also very comfortable to shoot on the range, and returns to sight picture more rapidly (even with 45 ACP) better than a lighter framed firearm. Which is great for my requirements for a carry gun – concealability, comfort and accuracy. Therefore I will practice, practice and practice some more. I have found the 1911 platform when properly maintained to be very reliable – shoot and forget is stupid, even for a Glock. If there is a down side to the 1911 it is the number of junk magazines – either poorly made (Gun Show 'specials'), poorly maintained, or with worn out springs (gun show cheapos) which can lead to issues. Personally, I have never had a problem with them – buy good ones and keep them clean.
    Having spoken with our State Police who dumped their Glocks for Sig Sauer because of un-intended discharge issues, and the lessons of the NYPD and their requirement of the New York Trigger (12# for the NY2 trigger) for their Glocks, I do not trust myself carrying a gun with nothing but a "safe" trigger and certainly do not want one with a 12# trigger to keep me from an accidental discharge. Once that seer releases there is no second chance. True, Glocks are relatively inexpensive, accurate and reliable, but still there is that "safe" trigger … (Kudos to Springfield for installing a grip safety on their XD Line). Never an issue with my Compact 1911. 
    My other carry gun is the CZ 2075 RAMI – smaller than my 1911, but a nail driver from a 3" barrel, again with a slide safety, but which I can also carry with a round in the chamber at half-cock and safety off. One more note – both the CZ and the 1911 point very naturally which is a great help for accuracy.

  24. Oh the camaradarie here is quite entertaining!🤣😂🤣 As an unoffended AARP member my Sig Sauer P225 with classic wood grips is probably too big for this CCW video but she purrs like a kitten in my hand and quite honestly in Texas a girl isn't afraid of a little weight in her hand. Just so you have a female perspective for your CCW list. 😉

  25. This guy is such an idiot. The glock 19 is a compact gun. The 26 is a subcompact. Ugh I wish I could slap this dude.

  26. I know this is an old video but I'm going to constructively criticize it anyway.

    So capacity is really overrated when it comes to Concealed Carry. In a 15 year study by the NRA, it was found that only 3 rounds or less where fired by the defender in 87% of Civilian involved self defense shootings. With only 3% of these involving the defender reloading.

    That means the ammo whore that is most auto 9mm handguns is pointless and makes your criticisms of the revolvers and .45acp "low" ammo capacities invalid for their use as Concealed Carry Handgun.

    I will also say that I personally grew up on the Colt 1911, it was the first handgun I learned how to operate (at 10 years old), in my honest opinion it is the best gun to learn proper shooting with.

    Dispite it being .45acp, it is smooth as butter and its heavier weight makes operating lighter and smaller caliber handguns that much easier. Much like a weighed practice bat in baseball.

    So if you are new or even an experienced operater with handguns, I suggest practicing/learning with a Colt 1911 .45acp. in addition to your Concealed Carry gun.

  27. I have no need of a gun. I walk around in my Ironman suit I purchased from Tony Stark. Bullets just bounce off of me

  28. When the G19 first came out it was a compact pistol compared to everything else that was on the market during that time period.

  29. Who ever marketed a 1911 as a CCW? I can’t find a single manufacturer that recommends it as a CCW. Why is it even on this list?

  30. Great Video James. One of your best videos. You presented great facts regarding weight and capacity, but I suspect that there will lots of emotion in CCW choices. Would like to see your top pics for CCW in different categories so everyone can see how their CCW choice stacks up to the competition.

  31. Kel-tecs suck, now that I got that out of the way. I completley disagree with you on the Glock 19. Can it be a pita to carry at times sure most guns do after a while. When I don't feel like carrying my 19 I carry a snub nose 38. Yeah its only 5 rounds but 5 rounds is better then nothing. I think its less important as to what your carrying (within reason of course) and more important as to how your carrying. Holster choice is king.

  32. I agree that polymers are better for ccw, but my 5" Springfield Milspec GI 1911 was only $499! I get to CHOOSE my own grips & everything else, too. $500 is the price of a Glock…

    Once again, I agree, polymer wonders are more reliable, but ever since I started buying 1911's; I just fell in love with them!

    I saw Tim from Military Arms Channel just do a reliability test with the 1911, and that puppy FAILED MISERABLY! Ha, so you are right about the 1911… 😁

    "1911's are like the beautiful, prissy, Prom Queen, because you ALWAYS really gotta take care of them, but Glocks are like fat chicks… They're not the prettiest things out there, but they'll ALWAYS be reliable and they'll NEVER let you down…"

  33. Waste of video.
    Personal choice is important.
    If someone shoots better with a revolver, so be it. Snub nose around the ankle gonna make you think “inefficient”.

  34. I'm not going to say your are wrong, but I'm gling to say that people that bitch about pistol weights are weak and disgusting. I carry a full size literally every single day concealed with no issues. Inner waistband and a t shirt. Compacts are for super stealth situations and women.

  35. Even though I have carried a 1911 for more than 30 years, I would have to agree that for most people, the 1911 is an overrated ccw. Mine is a Colt and I have barely ever had any issues with it. Plus, I'm 6'2" 230 lbs so the weight of is doesn't really cause me any issues. Besides, if you need more ammo than what a 1911 will carry, you either need to go back to the range or you're in a situation where you need an AR. I am considering going to a .40 though. .40s are like if a 9mm and a .45 had a baby.

  36. Revolvers as concealed carry are good for shooting from a jacket pocket. That's about it. I carry a revolver in case of bears, but it isn't concealed.

  37. I'll just stick with my Taurus G2C perfect fit with 12+1 rounds and when it comes to changing clips can't beat it, because when I hit the eject button it drops right out and got the next clip going in, I have another 9mm and trying to get it to eject the empty clip I have to take hold of it and pull it out because it's a polymer clip and they don't seem to eject like a metal clip and who wants to go out and spend hundreds of dollars for a pistol there are good and reliable inexpensive pistols out there and all I ever see is people pushing Glock's or Sig's not saying they aren't good guns but they are expensive, why can't you do a video on inexpensive and reliable guns from Hi-point to Taurus to Bersa and Cssy some people can't afford the guns you show and give up on thinking they will ever be able to afford a gun for personal protection, I'm one of those people but I've learned to look up the different types of guns that are inexpensive and reliable just a thought, because most of the guns you showed are a little pricey.

  38. The AARP comment was pretty rude. The statistical FACT remains that the vast majority of CCW sales are to seniors — just do some research before insulting the audience. The number of "thumbs-down" should be your first clue, but who said you were intelligent?

  39. I know I should have responded years ago when I first watched this, But I agree the Glock 19 and other guns in its size category should be called mid sized other some other name but not compact. They are not compact at all. Maybe just for an example we could start using sizes for handguns like we do with shirts Xsmall, Small, Med, Large. Xlarge. Or Micro, Small, Med, Large, Xlarge.

  40. You're absolutely right about my Glock 19. But EVERY other gun I've bought for carrying, sucks donkey dicks. Someone suggested I look into an M&P9c

  41. Walther PPS M2 is probably best CCW weapon I have. Had a Shield and didn’t like it and gave it to daughter. Have a Glock 26 which is my backup carry. Been looking at CZP10, just haven’t pulled proverbial trigger on buying it. Not sure why this guy dislikes Walther and HK but this review stinks…

  42. The most surprising thing about this video was when I heard you say you have a wife…I feel better about watching you now.

  43. Whatever. My 750.00 H&K VP9 is an awesome gun. No matter how much you may hate german engineering, its a gun for the ages. I see no one mentions an FN so I will stick with my three FN pistols also

  44. Most overrated carry guns are anything Glock makes , Sheilds , XD's and I'd agree on the 1911's and revolvers having carried both .Glocks are just basic service pistols not the guns of the Gods some people seem to think they are . Shields even though their very good little guns the slides are too heavy and they're to finicky with ammo oh and really without extended mags 7 shots isn't enough for a gun that size . XD's are just funky little guns that don't handle well and aren't easy for new shooters to use , I need for my wife or daughters to be able to actually hit a target with all the guns in the house or they lose some ,a lot of their usefulness & 1911's & revolvers just make sense they're both designs over a 100 years old .

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